Prototype Tank Development System

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Post by dogon11 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:30 am

Tank Pricing:

Tanks become more complex as time goes on, in attempts to modernize and keep them relevant. Certain weapons turn them into death traps, but any counter has its faults, and tank design is half making those counters, and half exploiting their faults.

Designing a new tank has a base cost of 5PP, for the sake of retooling costs.

Here are the things that add cost:

If your previous tank used any of these, you can re-use that type for 2.5PP.

New suspension: 5PP.

Christie: Good for high speed, Christie suspensions allow for fast-moving armor.

Torsion Bar: Good for heavy loads, permits heavier tank designs, is much harder to break.

Volute Spring: Whether vertical (VVSS) or horizontal (HVSS), volute springs make the rides on tanks softer on the crew, keeping them working at a higher level longer because of comfort.

New engine: 5PP.

Radial: No matter the fuel, radials are reliable and keep turning. Also considering their size, they are good for fast, compact tanks.

Turbine: With high power and high versatility comes high fuel consumption. Although they burn fuel faster than any other design, they can take a ridiculously huge variety of fuels.

Gasoline: Producing more power, especially at high RPMs, gasoline engines are the cheapest and easiest variety, with an easy, cheap fuel solution.

Diesel: With a fuel that is much more resistant to fires, diesel also has the highest efficiency, but produces the least power.

New gun: 5PP.

Rifled gun: A single-fire rifled gun has the advantage of being very reliable, and has a decent fire rate. Due to it requiring no energy from the shell amongst other things, it has the highest penetration as well.

Smoothbore: A single-fire rifled gun has the advantage of being the MOST reliable, and has the biggest variety of shell types. It’s also the cheapest.

Autoloader: Although it can be either type, it tends to have a lower muzzle velocity than either gun type, imparting the least penetration against enemy armor. It has the highest fire rate, whether by the carousel or magazine type, but is the least reliable.

Those are the basics of tank design, but also make up the least of the cost. Miscellaneous options add the most cost, but also make the biggest differences in combat.

Miscellaneous Options:

Composite Armor: 20PP. Composite armor is the lightest and best option for stopping high-velocity shells and penetrators. It tends to also be the largest, and the most effective option against shaped charges besides ERA.

Depleted Uranium Armor: 35PP. Depleted uranium provides an ultra-effective defense against all penetrators, being denser than their counterparts. All weapons systems encounter difficulty against depleted uranium armor at long-range.

IR Searchlight: 5PP. Allows crews to look through and spot targets, even for other vehicles, through smoke screens or other obstacles to vision.

Smoke Deployers: 5PP. Allows a tank to set up a smoke screen, shielding it (and any infantry around it) from view.

HEAT Shells: 5PP. Enhances the penetration of a tank shell at all ranges, but can easily be blocked by ERA or by composite armor.

Canister Shells: 5PP. Biggest shotgun shell on Kerbin. Designed for use against soft targets/plant growth.

APCR Shells: 5PP. Enhances the penetration of a tank shell at close quarters, but causes it to lose more velocity as it travels, making it less effective than AP at long range. Occasionally defeated by ERA.

APFSDS Shells: 10PP. Enhances the penetration of a tank shell at all ranges, but can only be fired from a smoothbore gun. Much more effective than APCR. Rarely defeated by ERA.

HESH Shells: 10PP. Detonates a flat explosive charge on the surface of an enemy tank or emplacement to cause extreme fracturing of the armor to send splinters flying inside, hopefully resulting in high crew casualties or module damage. Does not have the goal of penetrating the armor of a tank, and is defeated by ANY type of reactive armor. Are rarely effective against infantry if at all.

Gun Barrel Missiles: 15PP. Can only be fired from a smoothbore gun. Guided or non-guided, these missiles travel at a lower speed than tank shells, and can be defeated by countermeasures, but are very effective against tanks and emplacements. Can be shaped-charges. Are rarely effective against infantry if at all.

Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA): 20PP. ERA is explosive panels between two metal liners. ERA is designed to defeat shaped charges or penetrators by detonating an explosive liner upon contact outside the armor, destroying or deflecting the penetrators. Is not effective against standard tank shells (AP), is barely effective against solid penetrators (APCR, APFSDS), and is highly effective against molten penetrators (HEAT, HESH, shaped charges). Cannot be used around infantry for obvious reasons. Not very stealthy either.

Non-Explosive Reactive Armor (NERA): 10PP. NERA is a rubber liner designed to defeat solid penetrators before they hit tank armor. They work by flexing on impact, increasing effective protection and angle, possibly deflecting lower-velocity or short penetrators. They also generally increase the protection of the armor they cover, but do not stop shaped charges, even though they are still effective against HESH. The fact it doesn’t explode makes it stealthier, lower-profile, and allows it to be used in close proximity to infantry.

GPS Link: 10PP. A GPS link requires a connection to a GPS system (GloPOSS for example). Without connection, it is useless. Otherwise, it allows for precise positioning of the vehicle and friendly vehicles, allowing for more precise group maneuvers and tactics.

Gun Stabilizers: 10PP. Stabilizers keep the gun pointed in the same place even when the tank is moving, constantly adjusting elevation and turret rotation during vehicle movement to keep the gun essentially stationary, allowing for easier aiming and more precise firing while on the move.

Co-axial MG: 5PP. Whether 7.62x52mm or 12.7x99mm, co-axial machine guns give the main gunner his own response against infantry. Allows for greater fire suppression against soft targets than just HE from the main gun.

Roof-Mounted MG: 5PP. Whether 7.62x52mm or 12.7x99mm, roof-mounted machine guns give the commander a response against infantry on all sides of the vehicle, keeping it safer in close-quarter hostile environments.

Remote Roof-Mounted MG: 15PP. Whether 7.62x52mm or 12.7x99mm, a remote machine gun not only provides the same benefits as a regular roof-mounted machine gun, but keeps the commander inside the vehicle, away from potential harm from small-arms fire outside. Reduces the size of the fighting compartment with the systems for using it.

Fire Control Computer: 10PP. The fire-control computer uses rangefinders and gun data to give the gun a firing solution, hopefully faster and more accurately than its human counterparts. Lower reliability than a human.

CBRN Filters: 15PP. These miniaturized systems are designed to keep a tank crew safe and alive in a hostile CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiation, Nuclear) environment. They can fail, and require large amounts of upkeep, but in the proper situation, they are literally a lifesaver.

Tanks already have AP, HE, and smoke shells. Composite and Depleted Uranium Armor cannot go on the same vehicle.
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Post by Mobius on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:42 am

Prototype Tank Development System JKQeXPS
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Post by Warriorbulb on Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:00 am

Wow.

So we spend a lot of PP to get tricked out tanks? Sounds good with 200 spare Mk which I have.
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Post by Warriorbulb on Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:27 am

DP, sorry, can our tanks have multiple types of shells and have multiple types of tanks with different things?  Also can we have this for planes and ships? It is really sweet.
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Post by dogon11 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:45 am

Yes and yes, but you have to keep track of them. If you tell me to prioritize use of a certain shell, I'll do that, otherwise I'll just use whatever you have that's best suited to the environment. And yes, you can have different tanks (like scouts, breakthroughs, etc.).
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Post by Warriorbulb on Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:55 am

dogon11 wrote:Yes and yes, but you have to keep track of them. If you tell me to prioritize use of a certain shell, I'll do that, otherwise I'll just use whatever you have that's best suited to the environment. And yes, you can have different tanks (like scouts, breakthroughs, etc.).
But would be have different types of MBT divisions, like say 6 MP of my MBTs are using ERA and Barrell missiles and the other is using depl. Uranium and apfds shells, and list them in our military pages as different tanks (still mbts, just tricked out)
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Post by dogon11 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:12 am

Yes? You could also mix them, and just give me the mix of vehicles in each group.
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Post by Mobius on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:53 am

Warriorbulb wrote:  Also can we have this for planes and ships? It is really sweet.

I'm going to make a prototype system like this for planes. I could make a one for ships, but my expertise is in military aircraft.
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Post by The Cobbler on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:56 pm

Actually, I have to refute that dogon. I think one shell type is preferable for each division. Not gonna keep track of special shells in any case.

Anyway, we could, if demand is there, work on a system for planes as well.

Doing the optional war system now myself.
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Post by borisperrons on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:00 pm

I guess that we should with a "1 regiment, 1 tank model".
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Post by MysticPing on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:11 pm

I do not like the idea, but i look to be the only one

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Post by cziken20 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:55 pm

Haha! This is perfect! Now something i can spend my 1080 MK on! Just one question. If we develop the tank, how much PP is it going to cosyt to build one regiment?
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Post by dogon11 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:20 pm

The Cobbler wrote:Actually, I have to refute that dogon. I think one shell type is preferable for each division. Not gonna keep track of special shells in any case.

Anyway, we could, if demand is there, work on a system for planes as well.

Doing the optional war system now myself.

Tanks already carry multiple shells inside their ammo racks. It makes no sense to outfit a battalion of armor all with APCR shells, especially when the serve the infantry support role, when you'd want HE for soft targets, where AP and APCR are ineffective, and HESH useless. It's not my fault if you're too lazy to keep track of a few stupid acronyms.
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Post by Mobius on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:39 pm

Rekt
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Post by dogon11 on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:16 pm

After waiting a touch, I'm sorry, that was out of line.

But seriously, you wanna make Wargame a possibility, yet managing six different acronyms is too difficult? I can provide you a list of situations for each shell type. Seriously, here's one:

Shell List:
Spoiler:

AP: Armor Piercing: Standard anti-tank shell. Comes on all tanks standard. Decent penetration, loses a decent amount of velocity at distance. Hindered by NERA.

APCR: Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (known by the americans as HVAP, High Velocity Armor Piercing): Tank shell based on a dense penetrator. Higher penetration than AP, but loses velocity much faster, especially at long distance. Makes AP a better long-range choice. Hindered by NERA, but barely.

APFSDS: Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot: Super-high density shell based on depleted uranium to achieve extreme amounts of penetration. Discards a sabot out of the barrel to keep the penetrator pointing straight down the barrel. Can only be fired from smoothbore guns because of the fact that rotation causes the shells to become unstable. Best penetration at all ranges.

HEAT: High-Explosive Anti-Tank: Detonates a shaped charge to penetrate the side of a tank with molten metal. Higher penetration than AP and lower velocity APCR. Keeps its velocity as well as AP. Less dependent on muzzle velocity than APCR. Stopped by ERA, hindered by NERA.

HE: High-Explosive: Standard soft-target shell. Comes on all tanks standard. Good for anti-emplacement or against groups of infantry. Is a giant explosive. Not effective against armor, but somewhat okay against tracks. Stopped by ERA and NERA.

HESH: High-Explosive Squash-Head: Presses a layer of explosives against the side of the tank, and detonates it in an attempt to bend the metal and cause severe spalling, in an attempt to kill the crew and damage whatever is inside. Stopped by ERA and NERA.

Smoke: Infantry support shell designed to lay out a smoke screen for infantry or mobilized units.

Canister shell: Infantry support shell designed to wipe out enemy soft targets with what is essentially the world’s biggest shotgun shell.

Also, I'd like to push for discussion on whether this could be accepted or not, what changes people think deserve some airtime, and what other systems should be remade the same way.
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Post by The Cobbler on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:23 am

Calm down there big boy. I know those acronyms. My issue is that keeping track of "this tank has 6 apcr shells, and this one has 9 composite shells...blablabla" may turn into a bit of a pain to deal with. I like the idea in principle, but in general I already treat tanks like they're equipped for the job they're given, you see? So if people suddenly start only half-equipping their tanks with specialised shells that turns into a problem.

Perhaps it should be an upgrade called "Specialised Shells" instead, with different tiers of shells (say AP and APCR grouped or whatever)? So we dont have to go about individual shells and whatnot.
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Post by dogon11 on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:25 am

Maybe, but what if someone wants to develop APFSDS and Canister shells without HESH?
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Post by The Cobbler on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:26 am

Would it really matter? Immersion is fine but theres a limit to how far one should implement it. IMO we don't need extensive systems but the community seems to like it so why not. Just dint go overboard with it.
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Post by dogon11 on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:36 am

Naw, we're gonna have players decide on the thickness of armor in milimeters, number of road wheels, bore of the pistons in the engine, the number the tachometer goes to... /s
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Post by Yuriski on Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:22 am

If we're doing Tanks and Aircraft, we should make some Infantry changes too. Instead of the seperate AA, AT, Standard, etc, you start with a base regiment, then fit them how you want. Ships would also be a good idea to add this system too. I could get to work on the ship system later today.

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Post by The Cobbler on Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:12 am

dogon11 wrote:Naw, we're gonna have players decide on the thickness of armor in milimeters, number of road wheels, bore of the pistons in the engine, the number the tachometer goes to... /s

Sigh... No need to get sarcastic. You know what I mean.
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Post by Warriorbulb on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Yuriski wrote:If we're doing Tanks and Aircraft, we should make some Infantry changes too. Instead of the seperate AA, AT, Standard, etc, you start with a base regiment, then fit them how you want. Ships would also be a good idea to add this system too. I could get to work on the ship system later today.
Ships sound nice, but the infantry bit sounds a bit weird. Could you explain?
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Post by Yuriski on Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:37 pm

Warriorbulb wrote:Ships sound nice, but the infantry bit sounds a bit weird.  Could you explain?

Basically, you start with a base infantry regiment - you can then outfit it with different weapons, so instead of a singular regiment dedicated to AA for example, you could have a multi-purpose regiment used for AA and AT purposes.

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Post by JayDee on Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:46 pm

like brigades?
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Post by Yuriski on Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:50 pm

JayDee wrote:like brigades?

Pretty much. I'll make a more detailed post later.

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