Simpler and Better GM Combat.

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Yes or no?

33% 33% 
[ 5 ]
40% 40% 
[ 6 ]
27% 27% 
[ 4 ]
 
Total Votes : 15

Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:38 am

Charzy wrote:I've explained, in detail, why they aren't faults. It's not that I'm not listening to you, it's just that you're wrong.

Im sure Im wrong in your eyes. Seems most of the forum thinks you are wrong, however.

What will you do after the vote?
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:41 am

After the vote I'll laugh because people are idiots, and wait until they see sense.

If you have any actual arguments to make, I'd be happy to hear them. Right now, though, you're not actually saying anything useful.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:58 am

Charzy wrote:After the vote I'll laugh because people are idiots, and wait until they see sense.

If you have any actual arguments to make, I'd be happy to hear them. Right now, though, you're not actually saying anything useful.

I could say the same to you Rolling Eyes
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by borisperrons on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:09 pm

Charzy wrote:I've explained, in detail, why they aren't faults. It's not that I'm not listening to you, it's just that you're wrong.

Yes, right, we're stupid, you're clever. I told you before that you should show respect for other people here. You are no superman.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:21 pm

The Cobbler wrote:

I could say the same to you Rolling Eyes

I've made all of my arguments, and I've countered those arguments that were against me. You have contributed literally nothing to this thread apart from "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GOLDEN MEAN?!"

borisperrons wrote:Yes, right, we're stupid, you're clever. I told you before that you should show respect for other people here. You are no superman.

Repeating what I've already said without refuting it really doesn't add much to your credibility.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:44 pm

Charzy, I have tried talking sense into you, but I will refrain from that for the moment.

I stand by my proposal, and have not seen any valid arguments against it put forward you.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:36 pm

My argument against it is that the golden mean is an idiotic fallacy and you're still falling for it.
Your proposal is to merge this system with the current one, somehow having units combat values change based on a player's strategy. This defeats the entire point of this idea, which is to make combat objective, unbiased and fast.
Your proposal would not only add the time required to consider a player's strategy and somehow turn that into a set of modifiers for their units, but it also opens up the door for the moderator's own biases to take effect, removing one advantage of this system and actually reversing the other.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:44 pm

Charzy wrote:My argument against it is that the golden mean is an idiotic fallacy and you're still falling for it.
Your proposal is to merge this system with the current one, somehow having units combat values change based on a player's strategy. This defeats the entire point of this idea, which is to make combat objective, unbiased and fast.
Your proposal would not only add the time required to consider a player's strategy and somehow turn that into a set of modifiers for their units, but it also opens up the door for the moderator's own biases to take effect, removing one advantage of this system and actually reversing the other.

Seems you failed to read what I proposed. Let me show you.

The Cobbler wrote:So why not use these numbers as a base which cannot be ignored but can be changed based on the strategies and plans used, and thus combines the merits of both proposals? Mods and players have actual numbers to base their plans and reports on, yet can still move freely using strategies!

What I mean by this is, we use the calculations for the battles, but instead of treating them like infallible gods we use them as a basis for the reports we write.
You do the base calculations, see which side would win, then look at the plan and change the results should they conflict with the strategies used.
(EG, sending infantry into the sewer means they have a chance to ambush another infantry unit and thus lose very few troops, rather than getting
annihilated because of a calculation that did not take this into account.)

I agree that in huge, hectic battles, calculations make more sense (and speed things up), and in those cases we can just leave the numbers as they are and write the report based largely on them.
There are also many other cases, in which this simply doesnt reflect reality, however, and in those cases, the golden mean would offer an agreeable solution.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm

So in other words you do the entire thing and then you go ahead and change the results to suit your own ideas of what you think should have happened. Because that's totally not going to allow bias of any sort, right?
Battle plans can already be used to affect duel pairings and force compositions, your idea is both unnecessary and, as I've already explained, adds both bias and time to the system.

With this as it is now, you could conceivably have a regular player doing a battle report on their own without any issue. It's as good as it's possible to get.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by cziken20 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:46 pm

If a mod is biased, he shouldnt have been a mod in the first place.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:55 pm

Charzy wrote:So in other words you do the entire thing and then you go ahead and change the results to suit your own ideas of what you think should have happened. Because that's totally not going to allow bias of any sort, right?
Battle plans can already be used to affect duel pairings and force compositions, your idea is both unnecessary and, as I've already explained, adds both bias and time to the system.

With this as it is now, you could conceivably have a regular player doing a battle report on their own without any issue. It's as good as it's possible to get.

Suppose we just differ at the stem then. In any case it'd be superior to what we have now.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:16 pm

It'd be slightly better than what we have now, and far worse than my original proposal.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:27 pm

Charzy wrote:It'd be slightly better than what we have now, and far worse than my original proposal.

In your eyes Im sure it is.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by cziken20 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:28 pm

Its dumb. I dont imagine 100000 tanks fighting 100000 tanks and after it ends theres 0 tanks and 0 tanks. Because thats jsut how you said it in the post.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:32 pm

The Cobbler wrote:
In your eyes Im sure it is.
If you could fuck off with the whole attacking me instead of my arguments thing, that'd be great.

cziken20 wrote:Its dumb. I dont imagine 100000 tanks fighting 100000 tanks and after it ends theres 0 tanks and 0 tanks. Because thats jsut how you said it in the post.

Which is why, on the very first page (if you'd bothered to read the entire thread), I said that it'd probably be better if two units with the same maneuver had a coinflip to determine first attacker. Which means that every single tank-tank battle (ignoring modifiers) will be a 50/50 chance.

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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by JayDee on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:33 pm

you hold a poll and it turns out most people want to not use this system and then you get mad ok lel
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:38 pm

Considering that a lot of the people voting haven't even bothered to read the fucking thread (Exhibit A: Cziken), yes. I'm annoyed.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:39 pm

The Cobbler wrote:In your eyes Im sure it is.
Charzy wrote:If you could fuck off with the whole attacking me instead of my arguments thing, that'd be great.

I apologise if you took that as a personal attack. In truth, thats not what it was meant as, and it was just a continuation of what Id said before:

The Cobbler wrote:Suppose we just differ at the stem then.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by borisperrons on Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:15 pm

This has just dawned on me. Your system doesn't take into account the defense advantage in any way.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:38 pm

borisperrons wrote:This has just dawned on me. Your system doesn't take into account the defense advantage in any way.


The defender having a huge advantage above the "you don't need to deploy your troops to defend" is an idiotic concept anyway.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by The Cobbler on Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:09 am

Good point. We ought tochange deployment anyway
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by twinky827 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:12 pm

The defender should have a huge advantage..
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:58 pm

Why? They already don't have to have their military deployed. Requiring a huge alliance to conquer one nation is a bad thing.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by borisperrons on Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:29 pm

Because in real life you need a 3 to 1 ratio to successfully pull out an attack?
If the deployment mechanics are nerfed, then the defense advantage can be modeled.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

Post by Charzy on Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:39 pm

As I pointed out outside of the thread, that's pretty much entirely incorrect. You don't need to outnumber an army 3:1 to defeat it in its home territory.
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Re: Simpler and Better GM Combat.

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